Christian Bible (discussion, translation, accuracy, etc.)

[Crookshanks]

Okay. I really think that it is better to have a separate thread for any discussion surrounding the Bible because although it was somewhat relevant to the gay marriage debate, it is a topic in and of itself and a cause for many tangents in that other thread.

The first thing that comes to mind that I'd like to discuss about this topic is the autographs (i.e. original texts) and the claim that the Bible is the inerrant inspired Word of God for most conservative Christians.

My question is this: I'm unclear as to what exactly is considered inspired and inerrant. The original texts of the Old and New Testament only? The copies of the original text (copied by scribes)? Some of those copies? All of those copies? The translations of those copies? Some of those translations? A specific translation of the Bible? For example, King James, NIV, New World Testament, etc. Is the Catholic Bible excluded from being inspired and inerrant? Are ALL Bibles inspired and inerrant? :shrug7:

I always here Christians say that the Bible is inspired by God and it's the inerrant Word of God but not one has ever specified to me EXACTLY what they were referring to when they said that therefor all my questions for specifics. Clarification would be appreciated.

[Crookshanks]

For research purposes, I have been googling for about 30 minutes trying to find a Christian scholar that consider's themselve a fundamentalist. I'm a little confused with the terminology.

What's the difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist? Where does Baptist fall in all of that? Does born again Christian = fundamentalist, or something else?

I've found Baptist scholars. I can't figure out what an evangelical scholar or fundamentalist scholar is because I'm confused on the terms. Someone please clarify!

Or better yet, give me the name of a scholar or a college that is in line with born again christian's views of the Bible and I'll just look him (or her) up.

[tonyarn]

Just to answer a couple of your questions and not enter a debate at this point...

I think evangelical and fundamentalist can be used pretty much interchangably. Evangelical just means a Christian who feels it is important to share their faith with others (evangelize) while fundamentalist is just someone who believes the fundamentals of the Bible, one of them being to share your faith with others. Baptist churches tend to fall into this category, and being born again would also put you into this category. Being born again comes from John 3:3 and just means that you have accepted the gift of Jesus as your personal Lord (owner) and savior and that you have the desire to turn from your sinful ways. It does not mean a person who is born again is now perfect and never screws up.

As for the translations...essentially the NIV and King James are the same, they just use a different style. There are scholars who are constantly reviewing the texts of the Old and New Testaments, and there were some errors found in translation of the King James, thus we ended up with the NIV. I also think the NIV has some flaws, but it's in the translation, not the actual message. If we could all read the language of those original texts, THAT is where the inerrant word of God is at. Unfortunately, we don't all read Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, so we must rely on those scholars.

I have never read a Catholic Bible, so I am not sure how accurate it is, though I have no reason to believe that it is anything but the inerrant word of God. The problem with the Catholic Bible lies in the Apocrapha (sp?). Most any Christian would say those books are useful, good history, etc, but do not tend to believe them to be inerrant and inspired by God. Does that make sense?

The NWT is the JW version, correct? I can't speak to it as I have little knowledge of it.

Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible, although I don't know how they come by some of their beliefs based on the KJV as I know it. I don't know if they've made changes or what, so I really can't speak to them either.

I hope I've answered some of your questions.

[Castingbread]

For research purposes, I have been googling for about 30 minutes trying to find a Christian scholar that consider's themselve a fundamentalist. I'm a little confused with the terminology.

What's the difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist? Where does Baptist fall in all of that? Does born again Christian = fundamentalist, or something else?

I've found Baptist scholars. I can't figure out what an evangelical scholar or fundamentalist scholar is because I'm confused on the terms. Someone please clarify!

Or better yet, give me the name of a scholar or a college that is in line with born again christian's views of the Bible and I'll just look him (or her) up.

Check out Moody Bible Institute. I am sure you can ask them any questions, too. It is an evengelical non-denominational school. My dd is getting her Bachelor of Science in Biblical Studies this month from there. She said she would be happy to answer any questions after the 15th (lol--her last exam).

Back to the Bible is also something you can google and I believe you can send questions there, too.

Also, some well known evengelical preachers you can google:

Greg Laurie
Chuck Swindoll
David Jeremiah
James MacDonald
Chip Ingram

All of these guys have radio ministries & I know they have websites under their ministry names.

[PraiseAdonai]

Okay, first off, I had to google what inerrant meant. Yes, I never heard of it and didn't know what it meant. So, as I was googling it's definition,the Wikipedia definition came up.
Biblical inerrancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uh, I understand why you are confused and questioning this. I was scratching my head and too much information for me to process!

God is simple. Point blank. If you ask Him, He will show you.

This is the scripture that I hold true to and nothing else.....

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16 NIV).

Now I have a question for you. Are you seeking Him? If you are, again, ask Him to show you which way to go. What to read.

Sometimes we get too much information and it stops us from doing the action we are questioning. (Does that make sense?). So, go with what your heart is telling you.

From what my understanding is this. The bible was first translated into Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. The meaning of their words are the original. Now, because of translating words, other words are used for the definition. ex. Agape
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_is_the_Greek_word_agape_used_in_the _Bible

I started reading the New King James Bible. (NKJ) My dad had a Gideon New Testament Bible. A small little orange one. I would read that on the trains, at home. Mined you, I was a teenager. He spoke to me, (The Holy Spirit), through those words of the bible. I already had knowledge of Him through Mass at the Catholic Church and watching every holiday, the Easter story, The Greatest Story Ever Told. On the public stations. No cable when I was little, just started in my teenage years. It was on Channel 11. But, when I read that little bible it touch my heart. I read the life of Jesus. I didn't need to know what translation I was reading or so forth. I was just reading what I had. And He spoke to my heart.

Again, He is simple. Let Him show you. Ask Him, He is a gentleman.

There are a lot of legalistic Christians who believe first, you must do this, then you must do that and if you don't do this, you are not that. That is the Old Testament Law. Jesus came to replace all of that. There is no more sacrificing a Lamb, He did it for all of us. There are many Pharasis out there who tell you do this and that, again the legalistic ones. Please again and again He is simple. Any one who cries out to the Lord will be saved!!!!!! That is it. If you believe in Him and call out His name and say, Yes, Lord! Jesus. You are saved. (Saved, one of His, one of His own. Your name is written in the book of Life.) Done. He knows everyone's heart, no matter what there actions are. If you fall, ask Him for forgiveness. We all fall short all the time. We miss the mark. (Sin). Sin...every sin is the same (it's measure). From thinking something wrong of another, to saying something wrong, to harming another. Sin.. we are all the same boat, day to day. It is who you have in your heart and asking for forgiveness, that makes you Saved.

Okay, I hope this helps you. "Keep it Simple!!!!"

He loves ALL of us. He wants us to chose, Him. But, we have to chose Him, that is our free will He gave us.

[Crookshanks]

Okay, first off, I had to google what inerrant meant. Yes, I never heard of it and didn't know what it meant. So, as I was googling it's definition,the Wikipedia definition came up.
Biblical inerrancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uh, I understand why you are confused and questioning this. I was scratching my head and too much information for me to process!

God is simple. Point blank. If you ask Him, He will show you.

This is the scripture that I hold true to and nothing else.....

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16 NIV).

Now I have a question for you. Are you seeking Him? If you are, again, ask Him to show you which way to go. What to read.

Sometimes we get too much information and it stops us from doing the action we are questioning. (Does that make sense?). So, go with what your heart is telling you.

From what my understanding is this. The bible was first translated into Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. The meaning of their words are the original. Now, because of translating words, other words are used for the definition. ex. Agape
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_is_the_Greek_word_agape_used_in_the _Bible

I started reading the New King James Bible. (NKJ) My dad had a Gideon New Testament Bible. A small little orange one. I would read that on the trains, at home. Mined you, I was a teenager. He spoke to me, (The Holy Spirit), through those words of the bible. I already had knowledge of Him through Mass at the Catholic Church and watching every holiday, the Easter story, The Greatest Story Ever Told. On the public stations. No cable when I was little, just started in my teenage years. It was on Channel 11. But, when I read that little bible it touch my heart. I read the life of Jesus. I didn't need to know what translation I was reading or so forth. I was just reading what I had. And He spoke to my heart.

Again, He is simple. Let Him show you. Ask Him, He is a gentleman.

There are a lot of legalistic Christians who believe first, you must do this, then you must do that and if you don't do this, you are not that. That is the Old Testament Law. Jesus came to replace all of that. There is no more sacrificing a Lamb, He did it for all of us. There are many Pharasis out there who tell you do this and that, again the legalistic ones. Please again and again He is simple. Any one who cries out to the Lord will be saved!!!!!! That is it. If you believe in Him and call out His name and say, Yes, Lord! Jesus. You are saved. (Saved, one of His, one of His own. Your name is written in the book of Life.) Done. He knows everyone's heart, no matter what there actions are. If you fall, ask Him for forgiveness. We all fall short all the time. We miss the mark. (Sin). Sin...every sin is the same (it's measure). From thinking something wrong of another, to saying something wrong, to harming another. Sin.. we are all the same boat, day to day. It is who you have in your heart and asking for forgiveness, that makes you Saved.

Okay, I hope this helps you. "Keep it Simple!!!!"

He loves ALL of us. He wants us to chose, Him. But, we have to chose Him, that is our free will He gave us.

This was very sweet of you and I understand your good intentions. However, this forum is less about me seeking God and more about me wanting to learn about Biblical scholarship. If I find God along the way, then S-W-E-E-T. If not, so be it.

As it stands I'm agnostic. But I LOVE theology and biblical studies (ingrained in me from when I was a kid because my grandmother was a Jehovah's Witness).

[Crookshanks]

Just to answer a couple of your questions and not enter a debate at this point...

I think evangelical and fundamentalist can be used pretty much interchangably. Evangelical just means a Christian who feels it is important to share their faith with others (evangelize) while fundamentalist is just someone who believes the fundamentals of the Bible, one of them being to share your faith with others. Baptist churches tend to fall into this category, and being born again would also put you into this category. Being born again comes from John 3:3 and just means that you have accepted the gift of Jesus as your personal Lord (owner) and savior and that you have the desire to turn from your sinful ways. It does not mean a person who is born again is now perfect and never screws up.

As for the translations...essentially the NIV and King James are the same, they just use a different style. There are scholars who are constantly reviewing the texts of the Old and New Testaments, and there were some errors found in translation of the King James, thus we ended up with the NIV. I also think the NIV has some flaws, but it's in the translation, not the actual message. If we could all read the language of those original texts, THAT is where the inerrant word of God is at. Unfortunately, we don't all read Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, so we must rely on those scholars.

I have never read a Catholic Bible, so I am not sure how accurate it is, though I have no reason to believe that it is anything but the inerrant word of God. The problem with the Catholic Bible lies in the Apocrapha (sp?). Most any Christian would say those books are useful, good history, etc, but do not tend to believe them to be inerrant and inspired by God. Does that make sense?

The NWT is the JW version, correct? I can't speak to it as I have little knowledge of it.

Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible, although I don't know how they come by some of their beliefs based on the KJV as I know it. I don't know if they've made changes or what, so I really can't speak to them either.

I hope I've answered some of your questions.

I can see that you're a knowledgable person and I look forward to anything you have to bring to this discussion!

Thank you for answering some of my questions.

I will probably often repeat what someone else writes in my own words so that I can make sure I understand:

From what you said I understand that only the original texts are considered the inerrant Word of God? You consider the translations to be accurate enough (perfectly accurate in regards to the message, perhaps a few mistakes in regards to the translation) but you do not actually consider the translations to be the inerrant Word of God? Correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, the New World Translation is the Jehovah's Witness translation.

I used KJV and NIV as examples because they're some of the most popular ones that popped in my mind. I know there are MANY others. Which one do you feel is the most accurate? Or have you chosen one based on something else (convenience, availability, readability, etc.)?

[Crookshanks]

Check out Moody Bible Institute. I am sure you can ask them any questions, too. It is an evengelical non-denominational school. My dd is getting her Bachelor of Science in Biblical Studies this month from there. She said she would be happy to answer any questions after the 15th (lol--her last exam).

Back to the Bible is also something you can google and I believe you can send questions there, too.

Also, some well known evengelical preachers you can google:

Greg Laurie
Chuck Swindoll
David Jeremiah
James MacDonald
Chip Ingram

All of these guys have radio ministries & I know they have websites under their ministry names.

Congratulations to your daughter! I just graduated in June - Spanish Major. BORING. LOL You can tell her I have Major envy! (Pun intendid, but I'm just kidding!) Is she going to pursue graduate studies?

If any of the preachers you mentioned have a Ph.D then they'll be useful to me. If not, a google of Moody Institute is sure to pop up a few! So thanks for that tidbit. Do you know of any other college that evangelicals approve of? What about Spurgeon's College?

[bigsweetie]

I found this website to be a interesting read on the subject.

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-en...bible-history/

[Crookshanks]

I found this website to be a interesting read on the subject.

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-en...bible-history/

I read about half way through the website. I find it very biased against the Catholic Church.

As far as the timeline is concerned, it is informative. I had never heard of the Geneva Bible until now.