Do women that are gay suffer as much as gay men?

[3timesoccermom]

People that are gay experience every kind of abuse imaginable, but there is often news about men being subjects of unthinkable crimes and even murder. This makes it appear, to me at least, that men who are gay, in general, are treated even worse than gay women.

Do women suffer the same level of harrassment? I don't know if there is less of it or if I just don't hear about as much.

[wrestlegirl]

In general, no. Our society is rather enamored with pretty lesbians and watching them, erm ...to use a euphemism, "play Scrabble." A huge number of the adult films produced for the heterosexual male have two women either on their own or with a male co-star.

Let's take a line from my favorite movie, Office Space:
"What would you do if you had a million dollars?"
"Two chicks at the same time, man."

The two drunk girls kissing in a bar are the most popular ladies in the place.

Most/many guys love attractive lesbians/bisexual ladies. They love to imagine themselves playing a three-way game of Scrabble with them, and most/many guys' top fantasy is to actually play that three-way game of Scrabble. The guys who do get to play this version of Scrabble get immediate and eternal bragging rights amongst their friends and their status is highly elevated in their social group because of it.


However.
In the real world, not everyone looks like an adult film star. Lesbians of certain appearances and body types are ridiculed mercilessly. I have friends who have been physically assaulted, who have been subjected to verbal harassment, and I know of ladies who have been shunned in their communities because of their sexual orientation.
And, yes, there are violent crimes. There was a case earlier this year where a teenage girl was assaulted by three other teenagers due to her lesbianism.
Autostraddle — Friends of Lesbian Teen Gave Her Six Months to Go Straight Before Attacking Her


Violence against LGBT people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the United States, the FBI reported that 15.6% of hate crimes reported to police in 2004 were founded on perceived sexual orientation. Sixty-one percent of those attacks were against gay men, 14% against lesbians, 2% against heterosexuals and 1% against bisexuals, while attacks against LGBT people at large made up 20%.

Based on criminal statistics, gay men have it much worse. This doesn't cover all cases of harassment, though - nasty comments, exclusion, etc either aren't against the law or, if they are, aren't reported very often.

So, yeah, violent crime is much worse for gay men than gay women. Non-criminal harassment, in my opinion, is a lot closer to equal for both genders, though.

[3timesoccermom]

Yes, I thought about the "2 women" type thing. As far as looks go there are plenty of great looking gay men too so not sure about that being why gay women would be more readily accepted.

My daughter and I were discussing this because of the recent suicides of several young men who were gay or were thought to be gay. I had thought things had gotten a lot better for gay people being accepted as they are but because of the suicides and some horrific crimes against men lately I have realized that I'm way off on that.

For whatever reason though I just don't hear much about what the women endure.

[wrestlegirl]

Yes, I thought about the "2 women" type thing. As far as looks go there are plenty of great looking gay men too so not sure about that being why gay women would be more readily accepted.

It's completely acceptable for a woman to look at another woman and think/say "Jane, you look just GORGEOUS today! I mean really beautiful! Is that a new outfit? It really flatters your figure!" A woman can look at another woman and honestly find them attractive, or see their beauty.
Actually, we were just watching Condoleeza Rice on the Jon Stewart show the other night, and I turned to DF and said, "You know, she's a really beautiful woman. Look at her, she's lovely." He agreed and that was that.

When a woman is upset and crying, what's one of the first things her best friend will do? Grab her in a hug and comfort her while she cries.
Hell, a gal doesn't have to even be upset. If you haven't seen a good friend in a couple months and you meet for lunch - hugs all around! A gal gets engaged? Her friends squeal in excitement and pile on the hugs.

Now take those two situations and think of how the men you know would act.
I've never heard a guy say "Johnny Depp is really a handsome dude." without qualifying that statement with something like "I mean, y'know, not like THAT" or otherwise making sure whomever he's speaking to doesn't think he finds Johnny Depp even remotely sexually attractive. Most guys I know don't even comment on the appearance of another man (unless the guy is horribly disfigured and it then becomes a game of "I just found this gym bag in the back of my closet, smell it! Now you smell it, Jim! WHOOOOEWWW! Oh God, now you smell it, Tom!!").
I tried my own little experiment on this a few years ago, asking some of my straight male friends who they thought the best-looking male celebrity was. Those who actually named someone all qualified it with a "not in THAT way" statement, but most said something along the lines of "I dunno, I don't think dudes are good looking."
Female friends? All of them were easily able to name a female celebrity they thought was beautiful and none qualified their opinion with a "not in THAT way" statement.

How many guys do you know who would wrap their upset (male) best friend up in a hug and hold him while he cried? Okay, and who just read that and chuckled at the thought of it?
With the whole "bromance" thing becoming a little more popular, you're starting to see guys greet each other or say their goodbyes with the "manly hug" (right hands clasped in a handshake, whacking each other on the back with the left hands) but for the most part dudes just don't hug each other outside of families where that's the norm.

It boils down to societal pressures, I think.

It's not considered "okay" for a straight man to find another dude attractive unless he makes it clear it's not a gay thing.
It's not considered "okay" for a straight man to comfort a male friend with physical contact outside of a friendly pat on the shoulder, and the extent of greet/goodbye contact is most commonly an impersonal handshake that's more a test of strength than anything. How many times have we heard that men should have a "strong handshake," a "confident grip," and so on? There've been entire books written about shaking hands properly, for Bob's sake!
Amazon.com: The Power of Handshaking: For Peak Performance Worldwide (Capital Ideas for Business & Personal Development) (9781931868884): Robert E. Brown, Dorothea Johnson: Books: Reviews, Prices & more
Even the "manly hugs" involve beating the hell out of your buddy's back with your hugging hand!

This spills over into it not being "okay" for men to be gay, but it's on the whole more accepted for women being gay or bisexual.
The worst problems for lesbians seem to happen when a woman has a butch appearance, and I suspect that's an extension of the societal pressures above. A lipstick lesbian is a girl and it's "okay" for her to have physical contact with another girl. A guy can still scope her out, even if she's not going to reciprocate the attraction. A butch lesbian is a girl, but she kinda looks like a dude, and Mr. Straight Man can't help but look at her boobs, but it's kinda like checking out a dude's boobs, so OMG NOOOOOO!!!!! *brain misfire*rage*

[3timesoccermom]

As far as the men hugging, etc., that was one thing I couldn't get over with the Chilean miners and the rescuers and other officials - all the long hugs, etc. from man to man. I thought they were very comfortable in showing affection for each other and it was very heartwarming. But, I'm not sure if that's the norm or if it was just because of the circumstances of that situation.

[wrestlegirl]

As far as the men hugging, etc., that was one thing I couldn't get over with the Chilean miners and the rescuers and other officials - all the long hugs, etc. from man to man. I thought they were very comfortable in showing affection for each other and it was very heartwarming. But, I'm not sure if that's the norm or if it was just because of the circumstances of that situation.

In some cultures it's the norm. I don't know offhand about Chilean culture, but I remember reading in Mick Foley's first book about his time wrestling in Nigera, where it was common for men to walk down the street holding hands.
Went and looked it up:

I had seen some of the wrestlers holding hands on the way to meals and asked what it meant. "Holding hands is a gesture of respect and friendship," a wrestler named Sunday told me.

....

I was walking to breakfast with a few of the guys when I felt it. A man's hand. In mine. Flash Mask Udor was not just holding my hand, he was swinging it as we walked. I didn't know what to do.

He then goes on to jokingly (and somewhat graphically, so I won't quote that part) explain how he first made sure he wasn't "aroused" by the hand holding, then he relates how he explained to the Nigerian wrestler that in America "we usually just hold hands with the girls." The Nigerian apologized, let go of his hand, and they carried on to breakfast chatting normally, but Foley says later he felt ashamed for rebuffing a gesture of friendship and acceptance due to differing societal expectations.

Note how, even in the midst of this story where he feels bad for his reaction to a cultural difference, he still makes it VERY obvious that he didn't have a physical reaction to even innocent, non-sexual contact with a dude.
Mind you, this is in a book by a dude who grappled with other dudes, many of them wearing little Speedo-sized costumes, and the book is littered with male organ references and jokes, so take that how you will. Thinking back... all the wrestlers I worked with talked about each others' junk constantly. They're all straight as can be but they sure were obsessed with junk jokes. Now that's a subculture right there that bucks societal norms when it comes to "acceptable" heterosexual behavior.... 'rasslers.

When I was still in the restaurant business, I worked with a few gentlemen from Central & South America. I did notice they tended to touch each other more than the guys born in the States - lots of handshakes, a hand on the shoulder, pats on the back. It wasn't just in greeting, but stuff like - if one guy handed a pan or an onion to another, it would go "Hey, thanks buddy! *pat on shoulder*"
They weren't Chilean, but perhaps there are some parallels there. I'm sure the situation in Chile made the miners more eager for human contact, but perhaps they're more comfortable with such contact to begin with.

[derketchup]

"Do women that are gay suffer as much as gay men?"

Why is it you identify women first, sexual orientation second yet sexual orientation first and men second? I'm not suggesting you did anything insidious by wording it this way; I'm wondering about the subconscious thought process that phrased your title.

[motherofmolly]

the same problems exist..but i believe some of it is different..there is still the :

tell your friends and family
the taunting is still there
the jokes, name calling, making fun of things they do
then of the course: i can convert them mentality (this is the one that can be bad)

think about it. you are a gay women and you are working in a job. how many jokes do you think people say regularly regarding gay women? the "boy doesnt she look like a dyke" and the crazy connotations that go along with it.....

[Macaela25]

My DH is Eastern European, and I think men in other countries touching each other and homosexality are in completely different universes as a PP mentioned. I used to think that Americans were overly homophobic in that men can't even stand close to one another without trying to defend themselves through jokes. It's not uncommon for men in the same family to kiss each other on the mouth in greeting (as you would kiss your child), or for completely unrelated men to kiss on the cheek even in casual greeting in Eastern Europe. It's not uncommon for men, especially in the same family, to hold hands when walking or posing for pictures.

That said, when I asked my DH about homosexuality, he told me that it doesn't "exist". When I asked why, he said that anyone who was found to be homosexual, especially in the smaller towns and villages, would be killed. You know, vigilante justice style. I assume homosexuals are either very secretive or emigrate elsewhere.

Either America isn't as homophobic as I thought, or we've just got a better justice system who doesn't turn a blind eye. I guess as bad as America is, I can't think of too many more places I would feel safer if I was gay.

[grandma608]

I am probably going to be hated on this forum but my daughter is gay. Yes, it is difficult to admit but we love her and our grandchildren dearly. Can we tell other family memeber? no. There is still too much of a stigma for this especially for the older generation. I think it is harder for a gay male than a gay female but it is still a controversial area that affects the entire family. Please consider this and give them some sympathy the next time you encounter them.